Mr. Underhill wrote:

onthetrail wrote:

Dagoth wrote:

Can they take the rights away from Amazon?

I rather them not butcher Tolkien's legacy any further.

Tolkien's legacy is just fine

I see this a lot on Twitter and you must all think that Tolkien is very delicate if a TV show could do him any lasting damage.

Tolkien's legacy only grows with the passing of time
No adaptation however good or bad can change that.

One might say that Tolkien’s legacy is immortal ?

onthetrail wrote:

Mr. Underhill wrote:

onthetrail wrote:

Dagoth wrote:

Can they take the rights away from Amazon?

I rather them not butcher Tolkien's legacy any further.

Tolkien's legacy is just fine

I see this a lot on Twitter and you must all think that Tolkien is very delicate if a TV show could do him any lasting damage.

Tolkien's legacy only grows with the passing of time
No adaptation however good or bad can change that.

One might say that Tolkien’s legacy is immortal ?

Serially Longeval

Legacy isnt to be taken for granted. He's up for the BBC evil genious test now. I am curious to see how various artists legacy will hold up to the current inquisition. Dimitra Fimi and Mariana Rios could make the ridiculous claim that "Despite Tolkien’s overall message of friendship and co-operation, and despite his raging against the Nazis, the face of evil in Middle-earth is invariably non-white/non-European" without the Tolkien community speaking up. In the case of the Tolkien Society quite the contrary. Legacy can be damaged.

northman wrote:

Legacy isnt to be taken for granted. He's up for the BBC evil genious test now. I am curious to see how various artists legacy will hold up to the current inquisition. Dimitra Fimi and Mariana Rios could make the ridiculous claim that "Despite Tolkien’s overall message of friendship and co-operation, and despite his raging against the Nazis, the face of evil in Middle-earth is invariably non-white/non-European" without the Tolkien community speaking up. In the case of the Tolkien Society quite the contrary. Legacy can be damaged.

Are they not part of the Tolkien community too? This is a fandom, not a cult. So Tolkien’s “legacy” is really not for any of us to worry about preserving or sullying. If you feel it’s subject to damage, getting defensive about it is not going to help. Having productive conversations involves admitting where the thing you enjoy has faults, and engaging with those in a nuanced manner.

I just really don’t get why people have trouble accepting that an early 20th century oxford professor would have some less than progressive representation in his books. Of course he does. That’s not even in question. The question is how do we engage with it. Some people want to talk about that. That doesn’t mean it’s “damaging” his reputation.

It’s ok to still enjoy his works, and it always will be. But I find it seriously creepy to pretend they aren’t dripping with orientalism. Let alone call the very well supported claim “ridiculous”. That’s not the way to productively engage in a discourse.

We, the “Tolkien community”, are not a monolith, and when some of our members speak up, especially if they say something that some (but by no means all) among us disagree with, we should aim at productive engagement, not derisive and dismissive remarks about their claims.

I find it seriously creepy to make claims like the face of evil in middle-earth being invariably non-white. And certainly not a path to any productive conversation.

PS! Thats not the same as saying tolkien didnt have some non-progressive ideas. I dont make the mistake of confusing my ideals with what people in the past thought. Debate is good but legacy is not to be taken for granted.

northman wrote:

I find it seriously creepy to make claims like the face of evil in middle-earth being invariably non-white. And certainly not a path to any productive conversation.

But some people do genuinely feel that way about Tolkien's Middle-earth, that all who are good come from the West and look a certain way, and those who are evil come from far away lands and are dark. That might be an easy conclusion but still just as valid as any of our textual readings.

Scholars and researchers who come to Tolkien in a serious way within the last decade are going to present different ideas to those who were reading Tolkien in the 60s. You don't have to like all the ideas, and of course are free to not read them, but to label people ridiculous is rather unfair.

onthetrail wrote:

northman wrote:

I find it seriously creepy to make claims like the face of evil in middle-earth being invariably non-white. And certainly not a path to any productive conversation.

But some people do genuinely feel that way about Tolkien's Middle-earth, that all who are good come from the West and look a certain way, and those who are evil come from far away lands and are dark. That might be an easy conclusion but still just as valid as any of our textual readings.

Scholars and researchers who come to Tolkien in a serious way within the last decade are going to present different ideas to those who were reading Tolkien in the 60s. You don't have to like all the ideas, and of course are free to not read them, but to label people ridiculous is rather unfair.

Frodo looks Western? So does smeagol and sandyman. Gandalf looks Western? So does saruman. And speaking of sauron as european or non-european is pointless. I certainly dont mind ideas and debate but without the sort of claims i mentioned. Disagreeing is not dangerous.... not even disagreeing about the import of legacy.

northman you are preaching to the wrong person. You're just gonna have to accept that people's interpretations will differ from yours and let them be, just as they let you.

But, you can register your disagreement with Dr. Fimi for instance without calling her ideas ridiculous. She is after all just another perspective in a community where there is enough room for everyone.

onthetrail wrote:

@northman you are preaching to the wrong person. You're just gonna have to accept that people's interpretations will differ from yours and let them be, just as they let you.

But, you can register your disagreement with Dr. Fimi for instance without calling her ideas ridiculous. She is after all just another perspective in a community where there is enough room for everyone.

I did tell her that the claim of such invariability as she spoke of falls apart when reading the lord of the rings or the silmarillion.

My point here though is that I do care about legacy and I dont take it for granted. I think PJS movies did damage. Does that make me a cultist? Maybe. I have to think more about the term as im more used to being called a gatekeeper.

northman wrote:

onthetrail wrote:

@northman you are preaching to the wrong person. You're just gonna have to accept that people's interpretations will differ from yours and let them be, just as they let you.

But, you can register your disagreement with Dr. Fimi for instance without calling her ideas ridiculous. She is after all just another perspective in a community where there is enough room for everyone.

I did tell her that the claim of such invariability as she spoke of falls apart when reading the lord of the rings or the silmarillion.

My point here though is that I do care about legacy and I dont take it for granted. I think PJS movies did damage. Does that make me a cultist? Maybe. I have to think more about the term as im more used to being called a gatekeeper.

Well, I don't go in for all of the modern terms to describe people and I have no interest in labelling you or anybody else within the community. But whether you care about the legacy or not, neither you nor any of us can really affect where Tolkien’s legacy goes. If you feel that you have to tell others that they are wrong, that's your business, but I think that you are in for a long fight of it. Culture is changing, and for the better, and Tolkien will be addressed and discussed by groups of people who examine Tolkien using a modern lense, I intend to let them get on with it and I'll approach him in my own way. If once in a while someone presents something that helps my own path, then great, if not, I wish them all the best on their own.

What I will say about some of the more modern researchers, I've made some solid friends from all over the world through giving papers and research a chance, even when I've not agreed with the conclusions. I think that speaks volumes about fellowship.