I think you may have missed my point.
Imo it is a fallacy to think that anyone can create an adaptation that will be universally acceptable or even loved, because everyone has their own imaginations and interpretations (and motivations - be it money or conceit).
As some have said, it’s best to leave Tolkien at the door and accept this for what it is - an adaption loosely based on his works and incorporating fan fiction in that world. It could never be anything more than this.
Imo it is a fallacy to think that anyone can create an adaptation that will be universally acceptable or even loved, because everyone has their own imaginations and interpretations (and motivations - be it money or conceit).
As some have said, it’s best to leave Tolkien at the door and accept this for what it is - an adaption loosely based on his works and incorporating fan fiction in that world. It could never be anything more than this.
northman wrote:
Film being a different medium has nothing to do with this. Nor is this a question of purism. Ridley Scotts 'blade runner' is a great movie. It's not purism, but it's done seriously. Apocalypse now is another great adaptation. Its not the fault of the medium in any way that Tolkien on screen ends up becoming generic actionadventure stuff.
But the Jackson movies are not regarded as generic action adventure movies by most fans. In fact, most Tolkien readers I know were quite impressed by many things about the movies, but they were able to remove themselves from book vs film and simply enjoy themselves. Did they jump for Tolkien joy? No not entirely but the Jackson Rings trilogy is in no way generic. It is clearly a Tolkien adaptation and millions of fans became readers through those movies.
23 Jul, 2022
(edited)
2022-7-23 10:12:25 AM UTC
Edited by northman on 2022-7-23 10:22:11 AM UTC
2022-7-23 10:12:25 AM UTC
Universal acclaim is not a goal. Of course there are scenes even I like in PJ's movies. The coming of the rohirrim to the pelennor for example, but even that is quickly ruined by elephant surfing elves and an utterly ridiculous green cgi wave of death. I do want good movies however and rotk in particular is a big mess. And its not just the focus on action or adding fart-jokes or dwarf-tossing.... behold what happens when these people get a character like Denethor to work with. Munch some tomatoes while we do close ups man
northman wrote:
Universal acclaim is not a goal. Of course there are scenes even I like in PJ's movies. The coming of the rohirrim to the pelennor for example, but even that is quickly ruined by elephant surfing elves and an utterly ridiculous green cgi wave of death. I do want good movies however and rotk in particular is a big mess. And its not just the focus on action or adding fart-jokes or dwarf-tossing.... behold what happens when these people get a character like Denethor to work with. Munch some tomatoes while we do close ups man
I am afraid that 'universal acclaim' is the goal of most major labels. The big labels have ongoing expenses that would make most business owners cry in the corner of the room. And acclaim brings with it rolling revenues that keep their labels alive.
I liked what they did with Denethor personally. I agreed with Philippa Boyens that for film the changes to him and Faramir were essential.
What exactly did you expect from a 'ghost army' on screen? One has to be careful to not judge techniques of 2 decades ago on the technological advances of today.
I have to agree with you on the terrible and unnecessary farting / burping scenes and other general silliness that cropped up in the LOTR and Hobbit movies. I found it hard to believe that the same filmmakers could oscillate between nuance and juvenility from one scene to the next.
Like onthetrail, I however did not have a problem with how they portrayed Denethor. I felt his characterisation worked in the context of the films.
What I was truly mad about with the Hobbit films (among a host of numerous things that I dislike) was the Bolg / Azog / constant chasing and tracking nonsense in the name of “simplification” (because apparently casual audiences needed to remember the big bad guy from the flashback sequences!) and need for tension and action.
The sad part is there are usually too many cooks prepping the soup - and there is usually a clash between creative and financial interests. Even PJ, for all his clout, could not escape the studio pressure, and the Hobbit films were worse for it.
Like onthetrail, I however did not have a problem with how they portrayed Denethor. I felt his characterisation worked in the context of the films.
What I was truly mad about with the Hobbit films (among a host of numerous things that I dislike) was the Bolg / Azog / constant chasing and tracking nonsense in the name of “simplification” (because apparently casual audiences needed to remember the big bad guy from the flashback sequences!) and need for tension and action.
The sad part is there are usually too many cooks prepping the soup - and there is usually a clash between creative and financial interests. Even PJ, for all his clout, could not escape the studio pressure, and the Hobbit films were worse for it.
23 Jul, 2022
(edited)
2022-7-23 12:24:41 PM UTC
Edited by Morinehtar on 2022-7-23 12:44:47 PM UTC
2022-7-23 12:24:41 PM UTC
Eorl the Young wrote:
Even PJ, for all his clout, could not escape the studio pressure, and the Hobbit films were worse for it.
If I remember correctly, PJ was handed a mess of a situation (after del Toro left) and asked for 1 more year, but the studio declined. I wonder what he would have done differently if he had more time.
23 Jul, 2022
(edited)
2022-7-23 12:26:25 PM UTC
Edited by Morinehtar on 2022-7-23 1:00:47 PM UTC
Edited by Morinehtar on 2022-7-23 1:01:16 PM UTC
Edited by Morinehtar on 2022-7-23 1:03:37 PM UTC
Edited by Morinehtar on 2022-7-23 1:01:16 PM UTC
Edited by Morinehtar on 2022-7-23 1:03:37 PM UTC
2022-7-23 12:26:25 PM UTC
In my opinion, the latest trailer adds nothing save new visuals, so I don't have much to say except I'm starting to wonder why they haven't given any good indication about what the plot is (with time compression it's impossible to tell).
I hope it is because it can't be properly conveyed over an action-packed trailer meant to entice a new audience, and not because there's nothing to it other than "Sauron/evil is coming". I just can't care for Amazon's original characters being in some sort of unspecified danger.
In contrast, the short articles about the upcoming animation The War of the Rohirrim provide an interesting premise without giving away too much.
I hope it is because it can't be properly conveyed over an action-packed trailer meant to entice a new audience, and not because there's nothing to it other than "Sauron/evil is coming". I just can't care for Amazon's original characters being in some sort of unspecified danger.
In contrast, the short articles about the upcoming animation The War of the Rohirrim provide an interesting premise without giving away too much.
northman wrote:
'You have heard then the name?’ With hardly more than breath he formed it. 'Of Herumor?’
Herumor is Quenya. It seems to mean "Black Lord", being a compound of heru ("lord") + morë ("dark, black").[An Elivish Lexicon] Christopher Tolkien also suggests that the initial element of this name is Q. heru ("lord").[The Silmarillion]
onthetrail wrote:
northman wrote:
Universal acclaim is not a goal. Of course there are scenes even I like in PJ's movies. The coming of the rohirrim to the pelennor for example, but even that is quickly ruined by elephant surfing elves and an utterly ridiculous green cgi wave of death. I do want good movies however and rotk in particular is a big mess. And its not just the focus on action or adding fart-jokes or dwarf-tossing.... behold what happens when these people get a character like Denethor to work with. Munch some tomatoes while we do close ups man
I am afraid that 'universal acclaim' is the goal of most major labels. The big labels have ongoing expenses that would make most business owners cry in the corner of the room. And acclaim brings with it rolling revenues that keep their labels alive.
I liked what they did with Denethor personally. I agreed with Philippa Boyens that for film the changes to him and Faramir were essential.
What exactly did you expect from a 'ghost army' on screen? One has to be careful to not judge techniques of 2 decades ago on the technological advances of today.
While I had come to expect bubblegum from PJ, having a cgi-wave make the ride of the rohirrim pointless was hamfisted even from the people who brought us a stoned radagast on a sleigh pulled by bunnies.
What i would have wanted? A subtle handling of the army of the dead (i know i know... subtle what from a director who thinks repeated slowmo close-ups is aces). A pelennor lolking like a real place in a living culture with walls and fields and farms and mansions. A realistic battle sans superhero elves surfing oliphaunts, rohirrim riders charging oversized mumakil like rebell fighters on imperial walkers.
Now how to top off this trailer....lets have a balrog roaring at the end. Awesome! Absurd and ridiculous and tolkien deserves so much more.
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