Help on Saruman and Radagast question [Assumption they are Maiar]

To clarify for those who were wondering...

Tolkien says "We must assume that they [the Istari] were all Maiar" (Unfinished Tales, p. 394 of US 1st HC ed.) This comment is dated around 1972 by Christopher in a description of the source of the quote.

So even JRRT must "assume" they are Maiar. What else could they be? Has anyone written on this, or just taken the assumption as fact and never discussed?

Hey Rowns,

Lingwë recently discused Radaghast on his website here

discussing two sources, The History of the Hobbit and an article in Mythlore.

Cheers
Dior

I like the new Research Questions forum...Great idea!!

Well, the list of possibilities narrows... in The Peoples of Middle-earth Christopher points out on p. 384 (US 1st HC, follow the 'Radagast' index entry for other editions) that immediately preceding the sentence printed in Unfinished Tales ("We must assume...") Tolkien says (and I am quoting Christopher's phrasing here, not JRRT) "there is no possibility that some of them were Eldar 'of the highest order of power', rather than Maiar."

I hadn't seen the full text online for that Mythlore article that Jason refers to - thanks for the reminder/tip Dior! A great read - though it explicitly calls Radagast a Maia without discussion.

It still is a significant phrase ("assume") - must keep digging to figure out if he was just playing with the idea of one or more being a Vala, or if some of them were "other" (what other?)

There is another single word that Tolkien uses in a particular quote that I am pursuing on a completely different subject - may try to get it published in Beyond Bree's humor issue, as it is not serious research.

I've looked at this thread a number of times and never posted anything thinking I probably don't have anything to say that you all have not thought of. But after looking into the question I kind of have questions of my own and want to formulate an opinion!
So, in the Silmarillion Olorin is clearly stated to be a Maia. But earlier in the text on the Valar it states that (those listed) were the Lords, seems to me to leave it open that there were other Vala...
In Unfinished Tales, in what I take to be an earlier text from JRR (than the one with the ominous word "assume" ) he states "they (the Valar) sent members of their own high order", which CT states "the order of the Valar". This is interesting because CT seems to take it as a direct reference that his father originally thought of the Istari as Vala.
I remember reading somewhere that JRR looked at Middle Earth as one looks at ancient history and did not give himself liberty to dictate the reality of what "was". Regardless it seems that, at first at least, JRR was assuming that the Istari were of the higher order of the Valar (though not Lords), but then later on changed his mind and linked them with the order of the Maia.
The fact that in The Silmarillion it states "the Lords of the Valar" seem to indicate that there were others of the same kind (i.e. not Maia) and the casual conversation in which Manwe "asks" where Olorin is and "asks" him to go to Middle Earth ("asks" versus "commands") indicate to me that the Istari were thought of (at that time in JRR's writings) as beings of comparable 'stature' to the Valar, unlike the Maia who were completely at the bidding of the Valar.
Well, that was my best shot! And I'll be the first to admit what I have just said could be uninformed and or contradictory to writings that I'm not aware of!
Also very interesting articles on Radagast! I would like to know more about Sauron along the same lines of Maia vs. Vala, since Olorin was stated to be afraid of him (conversation between Manwe and Olorin)and in LOTR he is clearly more mighty than Sauruman who was the mightiest of the Istari...

Entry for "Angels" in Tolkien Encyclopedia (written by Jared Lobdell):

In The Silmarillion, in Tolkien’s
description of the creation of the Ainur—the Valar
and Maiar before the beginning of time—we find
that the ‘‘Wisest of the Maiar was Olo´ rin,’’ a name
Gandalf said (S, 30, 279) was his ‘‘in his youth, in the
West that is forgotten.’’ In the chapter ‘‘The Istari’’ in
Unfinished Tales is a rough version of a narrative
describing the council of the Valar in which they
discuss sending emissaries (messengers ¼ [Gk] aggloi
¼ angels) to Middle-earth to help in the struggle
against Sauron: ‘‘Who would go? For they must be
mighty, peers of Sauron, but must forego might, and
clothe themselves in flesh so as to treat on equality
and win the trust of Elves and Men’’ (UT, 393). A
peer being someone of equal stature with another,
and Sauron being himself a Maia (‘‘in his beginning
he was of the Maiar of Aule¨’’ in The Silmarillion), the
Valar clearly intended to send other Maiar as their
emissaries (Istari). Tolkien wrote elsewhere that ‘‘we
must assume that they [the Istari] were all Maiar.’’

Entry for "Maiar" in Tolkien Encyclopedia (written by Jonathan Evans):

The Istari, apparently a special suborder of the
Maiar, are an unspecified number including those
named Olo´ rin, Curunı´r, Aiwendil, Alatar, and Pallando.
These five become the Wizards of Third-Age
Middle-earth. In Valinor, Olo´rin—the wisest among
the Maiar—lived in Lo´rien and went often to house of
Nienna, the Vala of grief and mourning, where he
learned pity and patience. In Middle-earth, Olo´ rin
comes to be known as Gandalf. Likewise, Curunı´r
becomes Saruman, whose interest in forging and artifice,
as well as his eventual affinities with Sauron,
suggests an original association with Aule¨. Aiwendil,
or ‘‘bird-friend,’’ becomes Radagast and seems to
have been a servant of Yavanna. Alatar and Pallando
go to the east but otherwise are not mentioned in the
canon of writing on Middle-earth. Sauron, servant
of Melkor, was originally associated with Aule¨ the
smith, a relationship echoed vestigially in his friendship
with the Elven-smiths of Eregion and his skill as
the artificer of the Rings of Power.

Very interesting Jlong. I realize that i wasn't thinking about something very important about the Istari when i posted, "For they must be
mighty, peers of Sauron, but must forego might, and
clothe themselves in flesh so as to treat on equality
and win the trust of Elves and Men’’ (UT, 393). This would then explain perhaps why Sauron seems so much more mighty than even Sauruman, the mightiest of the Istari. He (Sauron) did not forego any of his might, he came to Middle Earth as Melian did in full strength.
It is still interesting to me that JRR talks about the "Lords of the Valar" and states that we must assume that the Istari were all Maia. Definately leaves room for some sort of 'middle class' of Ainur, not Lords of the Valar and not servants of the Valar.