Thanks for that. Out of interest, where are the alleged personal attacks happening - I haven't seen it on Reddit? Has that been on Facebook?

Stu wrote:

Thanks for that. Out of interest, where are the alleged personal attacks happening - I haven't seen it on Reddit? Has that been on Facebook?

I have not seen a single comment attacking the religious aspect. I don't frequent FB so maybe it is there. I have had a few run ins with that man (being so neutral and pleasant there) from the tolkneity blog but I have not seen any other people attacking anyone else.

onthetrail wrote:

Stu wrote:

Thanks for that. Out of interest, where are the alleged personal attacks happening - I haven't seen it on Reddit? Has that been on Facebook?

I have not seen a single comment attacking the religious aspect. I don't frequent FB so maybe it is there. I have had a few run ins with that man (being so neutral and pleasant there) from the tolkneity blog but I have not seen any other people attacking anyone else.

That's where I'm coming from - I'm not convinced these alleged attacks are actually real. I think some people are claiming to have been attacked in a kind of "false flag" for want of a better phrase. This whole thing has created such an avoidable bad smell, and more - and more - I blame the celebrities who endorsed it and abused their power to influence through their lack of due-diligence and/or common sense.

Stu wrote:

onthetrail wrote:

Stu wrote:

Thanks for that. Out of interest, where are the alleged personal attacks happening - I haven't seen it on Reddit? Has that been on Facebook?

I have not seen a single comment attacking the religious aspect. I don't frequent FB so maybe it is there. I have had a few run ins with that man (being so neutral and pleasant there) from the tolkneity blog but I have not seen any other people attacking anyone else.

That's where I'm coming from - I'm not convinced these alleged attacks are actually real. I think some people are claiming to have been attacked in a kind of "false flag" for want of a better phrase. This whole thing has created such an avoidable bad smell, and more - and more - I blame the celebrities who endorsed it and abused their power to influence through their lack of due-diligence and/or common sense.

Have the same feeling. Some people are being irrationally defensive about this and it's just not necessary or warranted.

Stu wrote:

onthetrail wrote:

Stu wrote:

Thanks for that. Out of interest, where are the alleged personal attacks happening - I haven't seen it on Reddit? Has that been on Facebook?

I have not seen a single comment attacking the religious aspect. I don't frequent FB so maybe it is there. I have had a few run ins with that man (being so neutral and pleasant there) from the tolkneity blog but I have not seen any other people attacking anyone else.

That's where I'm coming from - I'm not convinced these alleged attacks are actually real. I think some people are claiming to have been attacked in a kind of "false flag" for want of a better phrase. This whole thing has created such an avoidable bad smell, and more - and more - I blame the celebrities who endorsed it and abused their power to influence through their lack of due-diligence and/or common sense.

I think the "false flag" phrase best describes what is going on here.

As for the celebrities I am very disappointed that any of them feel they could give their names to this as it stands. I think they are the bulk of donation bait on this.

"The people promoting the project are not Tolkien scholars or researchers" — That's not true. At least one promoter, Joseph Loconte, has written a book about Tolkien (and Lewis): A Hobbit, a Wardrobe, and a Great War. Another has been a long-time Tolkien promoter (including when his homeland was behind the Iron Curtain) and, most recently, a researcher into Tolkien's genealogy.

"Due to the religious affiliations of some of the project organizers, we’ve seen the online conversation about the project spiraling all too often into personal attacks between those Tolkien fans who share Tolkien’s beliefs and worldview, and those who do not." — Well, whose fault is that? Those who (like Tolkien) hold those religious affiliations (at least at the basic level of Christianity), or those who reject and cannot abide them?

I do however agree with most of the other objections. I do however find these two objections to be odiously untrue.

Aelfwine wrote:

"The people promoting the project are not Tolkien scholars or researchers" — That's not true. At least one promoter, Joseph Loconte, has written a book about Tolkien (and Lewis): A Hobbit, a Wardrobe, and a Great War. Another has been a long-time Tolkien promoter (including when his homeland was behind the Iron Curtain) and, most recently, a researcher into Tolkien's genealogy.

"Due to the religious affiliations of some of the project organizers, we’ve seen the online conversation about the project spiraling all too often into personal attacks between those Tolkien fans who share Tolkien’s beliefs and worldview, and those who do not." — Well, whose fault is that? Those who (like Tolkien) hold those religious affiliations (at least at the basic level of Christianity), or those who reject and cannot abide them?

I do however agree with most of the other objections. I do however find these two objections to be odiously untrue.

For avoidance of doubt regarding the second point, do you consider the request that "any religious affiliations that the project may have/religious services the project might hope to provide be disclosed" to be "personal attacks"? I feel they are legitimate questions to allow potential donors to make an informed choice.

And if not, can you point to specific examples (beyond my misreading of what Tolkieneity posted, I guess) -- because these claims require a degree of evidence which I have not seen on any of the public forms, so either forum moderation is amazing or they would appear to be non-existent or very much in the tiny minority of comments.

"do you consider the request that "any religious affiliations that the project may have/religious services the project might hope to provide be disclosed" to be "personal attacks" — No, I didn't say anything was a "personal attack"; that would be the post to which I responded that did that. I simply asked whose fault it is/was that "Due to the religious affiliations of some of the project organizers, we’ve seen the online conversation about the project spiraling all too often into personal attacks between those Tolkien fans who share Tolkien’s beliefs and worldview, and those who do not."

There has been a lot going on in various Facebook groups that I have personally seen and know that various PPP people are also in those groups and have seen, so for those staying they (a) are not on Facebook and (b) don’t believe these heated fights involving religion are real, you are mistaken.

I don’t see the PPP statement as objecting to religious affiliations. They are declining to enter that part of the fray, aren’t they?

Sure, but I'm strongly questioning the truth of the underlying statement that "we’ve seen the online conversation about the project spiraling all too often into personal attacks between those Tolkien fans who share Tolkien’s beliefs and worldview, and those who do not.", because I have not seen it at all. So it is happening in private fora if it is happening at all.

Urulókë seems to have answered this question, albeit anecdotally.