Stu wrote:

To be fair, they could have said "fierce and driven", or any other number of phrases that were less on the nose than "full of piss and vinegar.

Sure, any number of phrases could have been used. To me that whole Vanity Fair interview has the feel of informality to it, off the cuff commentary not well-crafted press release material. (To be absolutely clear, I am positive that all of the quotes are real, and were approved to be printed.)

With that being said, "piss and vinegar" has been a common phrase in use for almost a century, meaning "full of energy and spirit, especially to an excessive degree". From what we are seeing from the marketing materials, I could not imagine a more apt way to describe what they were going for, in three words.

Urulókë wrote:

northman wrote:

Urulókë wrote:

northman wrote:

 "We’re doing what Tolkien wanted."

I read that as “Tolkien said he wanted other minds and hands”, not “Tolkien wanted our interpretation specifically.”

I think they are going far in using Tolkien to justify what they are doing. With that trailer in mind and statements like "she's full of piss and vinegar, and she's got a sword that's broken because she's killed so many orcs." I think its just disrespectful. If they had made some thoughtful comments about what they thought Tolkien meant by 'other hands' that would have been a different matter.

If you were making a Second Age Galadriel, how would you describe her (in about the same number of words to keep this an interesting comparison)?

Galadriel is one of the leaders of the elves in middle-earth. She is a great traveller, politically ambitious and vigilant of signs that evil is once again stirring.

Urulókë wrote:

Stu wrote:

To be fair, they could have said "fierce and driven", or any other number of phrases that were less on the nose than "full of piss and vinegar.

Sure, any number of phrases could have been used. To me that whole Vanity Fair interview has the feel of informality to it, off the cuff commentary not well-crafted press release material. (To be absolutely clear, I am positive that all of the quotes are real, and were approved to be printed.)

With that being said, "piss and vinegar" has been a common phrase in use for almost a century, meaning "full of energy and spirit, especially to an excessive degree". From what we are seeing from the marketing materials, I could not imagine a more apt way to describe what they were going for, in three words.

I don't think it is common outside the US (?). I had actually never heard the term before. Feels like crude language for anything Tolkien, given Tolkien was all about very well-chosen language. They didn't need to only use three words; that was a choice.

northman wrote:

Galadriel is one of the leaders of the elves in middle-earth. She is a great traveller, politically ambitious and vigilant of signs that evil is once again stirring.

How many people would read your description and think to themselves "I have to watch that show"? ??

More seriously, your description seems very much in line with how Tolkien wrote brief summaries in the Appendices. Bland, third person factoids without emotion. Absolutely nothing wrong with that! Just not how you market a TV show.

Stu wrote:

I don't think it is common outside the US (?). I had actually never heard the term before. Feels like crude language for anything Tolkien, given Tolkien was all about very well-chosen language. They didn't need to only use three words; that was a choice.

Definitely a possibility - McKay being American.

As far as I can tell from quick scanning around, the full phrase was first published by John Steinbeck in The Grapes of Wrath (1938). "I know what's a matter. Young fella, all full a piss an' vinegar. Wanta be a hell of a guy all the time."

There's an expression, "full of piss and wind", which means 'full of blustering talk; pretentious' that dates to 1922. There's also Kyne's "He's full of pep and vinegar" (They Also Serve, 1927) that may indicate a euphemistic treatment of "piss"; certainly the sense of vinegar alone meaning 'vitality' was already part of campus slang in the 1920s.

https://www.usingenglish.com/forum/thr ... of-piss-and-vinegar.2593/

IMDB turns up about a dozen exact matches in the "quotes" section from various TV shows and movies (implying to me that there are a lot more lines out there, but people didn't think them quote-worthy) - https://www.imdb.com/search/title-text ... d%20vinegar%22&ref_=fn_qu

Urulókë wrote:

northman wrote:

Galadriel is one of the leaders of the elves in middle-earth. She is a great traveller, politically ambitious and vigilant of signs that evil is once again stirring.

How many people would read your description and think to themselves "I have to watch that show"? ??

More seriously, your description seems very much in line with how Tolkien wrote brief summaries in the Appendices. Bland, third person factoids without emotion. Absolutely nothing wrong with that! Just not how you market a TV show.

I doubt Amazon or Netflix will be in touch yes ?

This is about what kind of tv show we want though. I want a show about the melancholy of mortality, what it inspires in us, about sealonging, travelling, the slow rise and fall of numenor, about how the mirdain are tricked. I want real rain and mud and trees and no glamorous filters. Action as spice not as the main dish...and real action not slowmo scenes of elves catching arrows midflight.

Stu wrote:

I don't think it is common outside the US (?). I had actually never heard the term before. Feels like crude language for anything Tolkien, given Tolkien was all about very well-chosen language. They didn't need to only use three words; that was a choice.

Other thing I meant to respond to: I would not expect a person in a casual conversation (even meant for publication) to channel Tolkien's vocabulary. In my mind, he just went with the first phrase that popped to mind - a very common idiom (to me, at least) that he assumed everyone would just understand. As an American being interviewed by an American, neither of them (or the Amazon people who vetted the article for printing) thought anything of it.

northman wrote:

I doubt Amazon or Netflix will be in touch yes ?

This is about what kind of tv show we want though. I want a show about the melancholy of mortality, what it inspires in us, about sealonging, travelling, the slow rise and fall of numenor, about how the mirdain are tricked. I want real rain and mud and trees and no glamorous filters. Action as spice not as the main dish...and real action not slowmo scenes of elves catching arrows midflight.

I would totally watch that! ?

We both feel that's not mostly what we are getting, though. I am still looking forward to the Rings of Power, fully knowing that they went "manic leaps across fifty feet while chained" and "catching arrows mid-flight" action sequences at least on occasion. That strays far, far from Tolkien's books, but Peter Jackson proved that the market is there for it (to the tune of billions and billions of dollars).

I really like the phrase "piss and vinegar", which I also had not come across. Gives me the vibes of a young woman drinking whiskey in alleys with bootleggers, showing her knees as she puts the screws on anyone who puts her down or treats her unfairly. And while that sounds nothing like the Galadriel we know, I am really up for a character like that in the series.

Yup, the action will be as much an important part of the show as the lore. As much as most of us want the lore to be front and center and action sequences to support the story. The market is there for this kind of program. Where the elves and men of the West are super heros of a sort. That’s how you bring in the casual fan and make the billions of dollars that Uruloke speaks of. The lore will definitely be there, and I have no doubt it will be accurate to Arda and some of Tolkien’s values may even be represented…but that won’t be the driver of the show.