Sorry, the "free" debate was utterly absurd.
If a book + CD package is priced at £75, then it's a £73 book and a £2 CD (or whatever). It's total illogical to suggest otherwise. Those slipcases, are they free? I mean, in this instance, HC will be paying pennies for these CDs (in terms of the physical item), but the basic point remains.
To the topic at hand (as it has moved on to): to avoid the accusation of speculating, instead of this CD example maybe one should consider recent HC "deluxe" releases which have already been sold with added extras like maps, booklets, and the like. The production costs associated with these, again, probably weren't massive. But when you consider that some of the books didn't make it out of their factory shrinkwrap (S) without the spine lettering coming off, maybe it's not unreasonable to suggest HC would be better advised to concentrate on the core product, the book, the standard(s) of which haven't been great. And, importantly, aren't improving.
I don't doubt what Urulókë has added though; this isn't a HC specific problem.
If a book + CD package is priced at £75, then it's a £73 book and a £2 CD (or whatever). It's total illogical to suggest otherwise. Those slipcases, are they free? I mean, in this instance, HC will be paying pennies for these CDs (in terms of the physical item), but the basic point remains.
To the topic at hand (as it has moved on to): to avoid the accusation of speculating, instead of this CD example maybe one should consider recent HC "deluxe" releases which have already been sold with added extras like maps, booklets, and the like. The production costs associated with these, again, probably weren't massive. But when you consider that some of the books didn't make it out of their factory shrinkwrap (S) without the spine lettering coming off, maybe it's not unreasonable to suggest HC would be better advised to concentrate on the core product, the book, the standard(s) of which haven't been great. And, importantly, aren't improving.
I don't doubt what Urulókë has added though; this isn't a HC specific problem.
Urulókë wrote:
onthetrail wrote:
HarperCollins now have a track-record of publishing poor books...
Don't have time (yet) for a lengthy thought piece on this opinion, but at a high level - a quick scan of Hammond's Bibliography will show that Tolkien books from the 1930s and onward had quality control issues, poor editing, "cost saving" material choices, and other issues that people somehow seem surprised that HarperCollins is suddenly suffering from. There have been complaints about Folio and Eason Press quality control issues. Super Deluxe editions from decades ago have some complaints lodged against some copies. This isn't a new problem, or one that will go away. Books are mass produced for consumption - making perfection for collectors such as us is not the goal (even with the deluxe line), and has never stopped "us" (not thinking of anyone in particular) from desiring copies of books that are at the bottom of the quality barrel - take Ace paperbacks or the Millenium seven volume boxed set for top of mind examples.
It is totally fine to not like the quality of recent releases, and to predict that forthcoming releases might follow similarly. Your opinions about the books (quality and content) is welcome here. I would like to ask that the specific "HarperCollins bashing" be toned down, as it is an industry-wide issue, and has been as long as Tolkien books have been in print.
I spent a day in a local new book store a few weeks ago. The new hardcover books across all categories looked and felt cheap. This isn't a Tolkien (or HarperCollins) trend we are experiencing, I don't feel.
To be fair, HC are selling books as quite expensive (even with inflation) "deluxe" editions, but having serious issues affecting most of their releases. I think if HC was only producing trade editions at trade edition prices they wouldn't get the same level of criticism here or on reddit (or - from what I hear - on FaceBook). The problem is they are chasing a different market at a different price point and consistently having results that disappoint customers. In terms of trade editions, I don't see them as better or worse than anyone else now or in the past, tbh. In terms of deluxe editions, the quality has been steadily falling off on the core deluxe line. That said, there was the odd bad one early on, such as the TftPR, which Clays did a rubbish job of.
I do think their choices add to this. Stuffing the leather editions, for example, full of extras has made a worse core product (because of cost and because the extras don't actually fit, so we get ill-fitting slipcases to accomodate them). This tactic of "stuffing" to divert attention from the actual product certainly isn't an HC-only problem, but it is still a problem -- and the reality is that HC is the Tolkien publisher and this is a Tolkien website.
But I do agree quality has been a problem right from the start and it is easy to have rose-tinted goggles with regards to - for example - things like the 1963 Deluxe LoTR where the buckram rots/falls off and the slipcases don't fit.
Khamûl wrote:
Sorry, the "free" debate was utterly absurd.
If a book + CD package is priced at £75, then it's a £73 book and a £2 CD (or whatever). It's total illogical to suggest otherwise.
I'm sorry, but this statement is totally wrong. If you could reject the CD and get £2 off then you have a point, but as you can't the CD is free by definition. It is £75 with the CD and £75 without the CD.
Trotter wrote:
Khamûl wrote:
Sorry, the "free" debate was utterly absurd.
If a book + CD package is priced at £75, then it's a £73 book and a £2 CD (or whatever). It's total illogical to suggest otherwise.
I'm sorry, but this statement is totally wrong. If you could reject the CD and get £2 off then you have a point, but as you can't the CD is free by definition. It is £75 with the CD and £75 without the CD.
Nah, that's nonsense, Trotter. That's like saying the slipcase is free because you can't reject it on that edition.
Thanks Stu and Khamûl (in advance), I like how this discussion is moving - good points and reasonable!
A few thoughts here. In the vast majority of cases for Tolkien "new" releases, these books have been in print for decades (coming up on a century soon for The Hobbit). The publisher has two goals - keep the books in print for new readers, and to get people who have already bought a copy (or more ?) to at least consider purchasing again. A nice sewn binding doesn't move either of those needles, I personally feel, to pick one "quality" feature. Large foldout maps? A booklet with material that has been hard to find for a very long time? A CD of a recording that was previously only available in a 100 copy cassette tape from 1992? Those definitely move the needle in terms of making sales.
On top of that, with the consolidation of the publisher from a family run business (way back in the day as GA&U) into now a public multinational conglomerate means that the Tolkien people on staff have little to zero control over picking a printer, choosing materials, dealing with customer complaints, and I think likely they don't even have 100% creative control - I imagine there is a team of accountants that has to approve every design decision.
Standards are definitely slipping at HC and in the industry at large.
I think it is very, very important to remember that we, the vocal few here and at other sites as you mention, are well below the 0.1% of "customers". These deluxe editions that are disappointing many of us are selling in the tens of thousands of copies. HarperCollins (the business) is being told by the market at large "these are successful! Make more!"
I am of the strong opinion that they can definitely improve, and the objections, complaints and suggestions here can serve a valuable purpose in providing feedback and suggestions to help in that regard, but I also strongly feel that whining, calling them names, calling their products "toilet paper" only serve to drive them away from listening. Instead, they respond to constructive critiques, suggestions for product ideas, and complements when they get things right - eg the cardboard boxes the new deluxes come in - those have been a fantastic but oft forgotten cost they are paying out primarily for us collectors to get (closer to) undamaged copies.
Khamûl wrote:
...one should consider recent HC "deluxe" releases which have already been sold with added extras like maps, booklets, and the like. The production costs associated with these, again, probably weren't massive. But when you consider that some of the books didn't make it out of their factory shrinkwrap (S) without the spine lettering coming off, maybe it's not unreasonable to suggest HC would be better advised to concentrate on the core product, the book, the standard(s) of which haven't been great. And, importantly, aren't improving.
A few thoughts here. In the vast majority of cases for Tolkien "new" releases, these books have been in print for decades (coming up on a century soon for The Hobbit). The publisher has two goals - keep the books in print for new readers, and to get people who have already bought a copy (or more ?) to at least consider purchasing again. A nice sewn binding doesn't move either of those needles, I personally feel, to pick one "quality" feature. Large foldout maps? A booklet with material that has been hard to find for a very long time? A CD of a recording that was previously only available in a 100 copy cassette tape from 1992? Those definitely move the needle in terms of making sales.
On top of that, with the consolidation of the publisher from a family run business (way back in the day as GA&U) into now a public multinational conglomerate means that the Tolkien people on staff have little to zero control over picking a printer, choosing materials, dealing with customer complaints, and I think likely they don't even have 100% creative control - I imagine there is a team of accountants that has to approve every design decision.
Standards are definitely slipping at HC and in the industry at large.
Stu wrote:
The problem is they are chasing a different market at a different price point and consistently having results that disappoint customers.
I think it is very, very important to remember that we, the vocal few here and at other sites as you mention, are well below the 0.1% of "customers". These deluxe editions that are disappointing many of us are selling in the tens of thousands of copies. HarperCollins (the business) is being told by the market at large "these are successful! Make more!"
I am of the strong opinion that they can definitely improve, and the objections, complaints and suggestions here can serve a valuable purpose in providing feedback and suggestions to help in that regard, but I also strongly feel that whining, calling them names, calling their products "toilet paper" only serve to drive them away from listening. Instead, they respond to constructive critiques, suggestions for product ideas, and complements when they get things right - eg the cardboard boxes the new deluxes come in - those have been a fantastic but oft forgotten cost they are paying out primarily for us collectors to get (closer to) undamaged copies.
Stu wrote:
Trotter wrote:
Khamûl wrote:
Sorry, the "free" debate was utterly absurd.
If a book + CD package is priced at £75, then it's a £73 book and a £2 CD (or whatever). It's total illogical to suggest otherwise.
I'm sorry, but this statement is totally wrong. If you could reject the CD and get £2 off then you have a point, but as you can't the CD is free by definition. It is £75 with the CD and £75 without the CD.
Nah, that's nonsense, Trotter. That's like saying the slipcase is free because you can't reject it on that edition.
I expect the slipcase to be included in the price of the Deluxe edition, I don't expect a CD, as I am not paying any extra for it, then it is free. This is not difficult.
Stu wrote:
Trotter wrote:
Khamûl wrote:
Sorry, the "free" debate was utterly absurd.
If a book + CD package is priced at £75, then it's a £73 book and a £2 CD (or whatever). It's total illogical to suggest otherwise.
I'm sorry, but this statement is totally wrong. If you could reject the CD and get £2 off then you have a point, but as you can't the CD is free by definition. It is £75 with the CD and £75 without the CD.
Nah, that's nonsense, Trotter. That's like saying the slipcase is free because you can't reject it on that edition.
OK guys, I think we've beaten the dead horse about nine feet under the ground at this point.
Stu is right. The CD isn't free to HarperCollins. There is a COGS (cost of goods sold) for the CD. HarperCollins pays for that and every other feature in the book.
Trotter is right. The CD is free to the consumer.
I think it is purely speculation, and pointless at that, to be trying to prove/disprove whether HC cut corners on other costs in order to include this, so let's stop that particular thread.
Trotter wrote:
Stu wrote:
Trotter wrote:
Khamûl wrote:
Sorry, the "free" debate was utterly absurd.
If a book + CD package is priced at £75, then it's a £73 book and a £2 CD (or whatever). It's total illogical to suggest otherwise.
I'm sorry, but this statement is totally wrong. If you could reject the CD and get £2 off then you have a point, but as you can't the CD is free by definition. It is £75 with the CD and £75 without the CD.
Nah, that's nonsense, Trotter. That's like saying the slipcase is free because you can't reject it on that edition.
I expect the slipcase to be included in the price of the Deluxe edition, I don't expect a CD, as I am not paying any extra for it, then it is free. This is not difficult.
But you are paying extra for it - it is just contained within the advertised price. But I think we will have to disagree on this one as there seems to be a conceptual dissonance here that isn't going to be resolved (and I don't know how better to explain it).
Urulókë wrote:
Thanks Stu and Khamûl (in advance), I like how this discussion is moving - good points and reasonable!
I am of the strong opinion that they can definitely improve, and the objections, complaints and suggestions here can serve a valuable purpose in providing feedback and suggestions to help in that regard, but I also strongly feel that whining, calling them names, calling their products "toilet paper" only serve to drive them away from listening. Instead, they respond to constructive critiques, suggestions for product ideas, and complements when they get things right - eg the cardboard boxes the new deluxes come in - those have been a fantastic but oft forgotten cost they are paying out primarily for us collectors to get (closer to) undamaged copies.
Just to take issue with one point, where I think you are being a little disingenuous. Describing a book as being printed on "toilet paper" (whilst obviously hyperbolic) is not calling the product toilet paper - it is just saying the book is printed on very low quality paper (and is a pretty commonly used phrase). Subtle changes in wording can make for a very distorted meaning.
Stu wrote:
Urulókë wrote:
Thanks Stu and Khamûl (in advance), I like how this discussion is moving - good points and reasonable!
I am of the strong opinion that they can definitely improve, and the objections, complaints and suggestions here can serve a valuable purpose in providing feedback and suggestions to help in that regard, but I also strongly feel that whining, calling them names, calling their products "toilet paper" only serve to drive them away from listening. Instead, they respond to constructive critiques, suggestions for product ideas, and complements when they get things right - eg the cardboard boxes the new deluxes come in - those have been a fantastic but oft forgotten cost they are paying out primarily for us collectors to get (closer to) undamaged copies.
Just to take issue with one point, where I think you are being a little disingenuous. Describing a book as being printed on "toilet paper" (whilst obviously hyperbolic) is not calling the product toilet paper - it is just saying the book is printed on very low quality paper (and is a pretty commonly used phrase). Subtle changes in wording can make for a very distorted meaning.
Saying an insulting phrase is commonly used, doesn't make it less insulting. If you want better products, I'm saying that you will have more impact by asking for better products rather than using insulting phrases.
I don't understand where you think I am being disingenuous. When a prior comment said their books are printed on toilet paper, how is that not calling the product toilet paper? In the "commonly used phrase" you refer to, people mean tearing pages out of books to use as toilet paper. No one is talking about using the binding materials.
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