onthetrail wrote:

I can't see Amazon blindly or even more generally copying elements from an atlas or book that is not directly linked to what they will be producing.

Please note that I didn't say "Amazon", I said "whoever came up with the map." I think this is amply demonstrated from the first compass rose design (which certainly was "blindly or even more generally copying elements from an atlas") on down to the shape of the coasts of the Hither Lands, the positioning and orientation of Númenor, etc.

The compass rose was used on John Howe's "Maps of Middle-earth" more than a decade ago and may have been on some New Line Cinema maps from the LOTR movie trilogy (I'll have to dig further to verify that later one).

The Howe maps can be seen in my Compass Rose writeup.

So, the current cartographer could well have been working with second- or third-party material that also drew from Fonstad's source material.

There are no canonical 2nd age maps (at least that cover the entirety of what Amazon's cartographer shows) so perhaps they did pull some from Fonstad's Atlas beyond the Compass Rose. I don't have any knowledge of this, nor do I know what would fall into fair use or copyright infringement. Would a squiggly line for a coast fall into one or the other? I dunno.

I expect that I have single-handedly generated more revenue by convincing people to buy copies of Fonstad's Atlas with all my blathering than her Estate could ever win in a lawsuit, so perhaps they are ok with the current arrangement (whatever that may be).

Looking at Fonstad's coastline for the Hither Lands (actually the entirety of Middle-earth for the Second Age) on p. 53, and Tolkien's own maps, they align pretty much exactly with what Amazon's cartographer drew. I see enough differences between the three that I put it all down to everyone working off the same original source, which Amazon does have permission to do.

For positioning of Númenor, I think Amazon followed the UT map pretty closely (except for getting Rómenna on the wrong side of the bay), which clearly Fonstad did as well (as she should have). For positioning, did Fonstad get it wrong? If she followed what the text implies (which I believe she did), then Amazon isn't copying her, it's following Tolkien's guidance, no?

Just to clarify, I have no knowledge if the Amazon cartographer did or did not use Fonstad's Atlas as a source. It is certainly possible (even likely, as it is a great reference).

In case anyone missed it, there was a Business Insider scoop with an Amazon executive back on March 12th in which he clarified:

https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon ... he-rings-2019-3?r=US&IR=T

"About four weeks ago, we opened up our social handles "@LOTRonPrime" and began to reveal what we were doing for the series. And through a reveal of a series of maps, we told the audience and the fans that were going to be going into the second age. There's a lot more to come."

So, for the avoidance of any doubt, the show is 100% set in the Second Age (i.e. not flashbacks) and the map reveals were intended to give avid Tolkien readers an insight into "what [Amazon] are doing for the series".

I think that Urulókë has done very well in pointing out that there is a significant flavour of Aldarion and Erendis in the maps.

My point being that the maps are not the product of some rogue marketing team but rather designed with very careful attention to detail as part of a drip-feed of information on the actual content of the TV series that will come at the end.

Althoun wrote:
My point being that the maps are not the product of some rogue marketing team but rather designed with very careful attention to detail as part of a drip-feed of information on the actual content of the TV series that will come at the end.

My point too, it is too specific to be just some random use of an atlas, this interview makes that clear.

Indeed.

Urulókë mentioned in one of his earlier posts that 'forests' connected with Aldarion, in both Númenor and Middle-Earth, were depicted on the map; whereas those not connected with him are typically omitted.

Consider that in Númenor, the Andustar region is described as having "high firwoods looking out to the sea" in its highlands and "great woods of birch and beech" in its southern lowlands. None of these extensive woodland habitats are shown on Amazon's map and nor is the major city of this region, Andúnië, where the Faithful would ultimately originate from - Amandil, Elendil, Isildur and Anarion.

By contrast, the "evergreen and fragrant trees" of the Bay of Eldanna, surrounding the city of Eldalondë, are clearly demarcated as are the "abundance of trees of many kinds" in the Hyarrostar region.

I think this is significant given that, in The Description of Númenor chapter in Unfinished Tales, we learn the following:

At the centre of the Bay of Eldanna was the most beautiful of all the havens of Númenor, Eldalondë the Green; and hither in the earlier days the swift white ships of the Eldar of Eressëa came most often.

And about that place, up the seaward slopes and far into the land, grew the evergreen and fragrant trees that they brought out of the West, and so throve there that the Eldar said that almost it was fair as a haven in Eressëa. They were the greatest delight of Numenor, and they were remembered in many songs long after they had perished for ever, for few ever flowered east of the Land of Gift: oiolairë and lairelossë, nessamelda, vardarianna, taniquelassë, and yavannamirë with its globed and scarlet fruits. Flower, leaf, and rind of those trees exuded sweet scents and all that country was full of blended fragrance; therefore it was
called Nísimaldar, the Fragrant Trees.

Many of them were planted and grew, though far less abundantly, in
other region of Númenor; but only here grew the mighty golden tree malinornë reaching after five centuries a height scarce less than it achieved in Eressëa itself. Its bark was silver and smooth, and its boughs somewhat
upswept after the manner of the beech; but it never grew save with a single trunk. Its leaves, like those of the beech but greater, were pale green above and beneath were silver glistering in the sun; in the autumn they did not fall, but turned to pale gold.

In the spring it bore golden blossom in clusters like a cherry, which bloomed on during the summer; and as soon as the flowers opened the leaves fell, so that through spring and summer a grove of malinornë was carpeted and roofed with gold, but its pillars were of grey silver.

Its fruit was a nut with a silver shale; and some were given as gift by Tar-Aldarion, the sixth King of Númenor, to King Gilgalad of Lindon. They did not take root in that land; but Gil-galad gave some to his kinswoman Galadriel, and under her power they grew and flourished in the guarded land of Lothlórien beside the River Anduin, until the High Elves at last left Middle-earth; but they did not reach the height or girth of the great groves of Númenor.

In the Hyarrostar grew an abundance of trees of many kinds, and among them the laurinquë in which the people delighted for its flowers, for it had no other use.

This name they gave it because of its longhanging clusters of yellow flowers; and some who had heard from the Eldar of Laurelin, the Golden Tree of Valinor, believed that it came from that great Tree, being brought in seed thither by the Eldar; but it was not so. From the days of Tar-Aldarion there were great plantations in the Hyarrostar to furnish timber for shipbuilding.

These two wooded areas are intrinsically connected to the career of Aldarion and (1) his relations with Gil-galad and Galadriel along with (2) his eventual decision to start logging and deforesting the Middle-Earth countries of the Enedwaith and Minhiriath for timber, after his felling of trees triggers consternation among the Númenóreans, including his own wife Erendis.

From the corresponding 'dis-emphasis' placed upon Andustar, I think we can be fairly certain that the Faithful will not be present because the series is set much too early, before the coming of the shadow to Númenor and its division into two antagonistic political parties of Elf-friends and King's Men resisting the Ban of the Valar.

I think people are missing/mistaking my point, which is that (to my eye/mind) whoever executed this map undoubtedly made use of Fonstad's work, _and so_ I hope her estate has been compensated (and thus her work not simply appropriated). There are elements on the map that are not found (IIRC) on any map executed by Tolkien (e.g. the placement and orientation of Númenor wrt Middle-earth, the shape and features of the western coast of the southern lands of Harad) that _are_ found in Fonstad's maps, and I find it very unlikely indeed that the latter did not serve as the source for these. Amazon was willing to shell out a tremendous amount of money for the rights to Tolkien's work. Why shouldn't one hope that the late Fonstad's estate got a little bit of same for the (to my eye, evident and apparent) use of hers?

Aelfwine wrote:
Amazon was willing to shell out a tremendous amount of money for the rights to Tolkien's work. Why shouldn't one hope that the late Fonstad's estate got a little bit of same for the (to my eye, evident and apparent) use of hers?

I think that's fair (and I agree), but.... Amazon. They don't even pay a living wage or think paying corporate tax is appropriate, so I very much doubt they willingly compensated anyone they could avoid compensating. They are a reprehensible organisation (IMHO).

I think it a fair point as well, Aelfwine. My counter-point (and a weak one, admittedly) is that the features you're attributing to her Atlas (and I'm working on writing that up, it's a good thread to pull on) have been in use by others for decades (MERP, John Howe/Brian Sibley's Maps collection, etc.) and so Amazon may well have appropriated the information without even understanding the original source.

Remember that HarperCollins is a part of the agreement with Amazon, and has access to the copyright to the Howe maps (and assumably those were published with the Estate's blessing or non-resistance at the least) so there is a firm chain of permission that avoids Fonstad's Atlas - which may well have been build on a shaky foundation back in 1994 as you are rightfully pointing out.