I have been asked the following question and would welcome any opinions or comments.

Would you so kindly ask a question to the thread regarding Tolkien's artwork and when it would be due to come out of copyright.

Trotter wrote:

I have been asked the following question and would welcome any opinions or comments.

Would you so kindly ask a question to the thread regarding Tolkien's artwork and when it would be due to come out of copyright.

Tolkien’s published artwork in his lifetime will fall into PD in 2044 along with all artwork published after the 1988 Copyright Act change. All posthumous artwork published before 1988 falls into PD 50 years after publication.

I was corrected on the above. Turns out it all goes PD in 2044.

Stu wrote:

I think with HoME, the original JRR content would drop out of copyright and could be used based on JRRs death date, but use of the commentary would be based on Christopher's death.

I don't think that's right. Every text in the HoMe is Christopher's edition of that text, and so he holds copyright in those editions. It can be argued that the original manuscripts themselves will fall out of copyright when Tolkien's own rights expire, but then of course one must now still sign agreements to work with those MSS, all of which (to my knowledge) prohibit unauthorized publication.

Aelfwine wrote:

Stu wrote:

I think with HoME, the original JRR content would drop out of copyright and could be used based on JRRs death date, but use of the commentary would be based on Christopher's death.

I don't think that's right. Every text in the HoMe is Christopher's edition of that text, and so he holds copyright in those editions. It can be argued that the original manuscripts themselves will fall out of copyright when Tolkien's own rights expire, but then of course one must now still sign agreements to work with those MSS, all of which (to my knowledge) prohibit unauthorized publication.

I don't understand how that can be the case. How could the manuscript fall into PD but the texts on it remain in copyright because CJRT transcribed and edited them? If that were the case then in a few years Simon Tolkien (for instance) could edit and update CJRT's edits and then claim copyright over them. Thus keeping the texts in copyright until 70 years after his death. Then another Tolkien does the same and on we go.

I don't see how pure transcription of a text could give copyright to the transcriber. That would completely break the copyright system. And if we are saying that CT changed the text during transcription (and therefore the original text became his unique work), then that would make HoME somewhat meaningless.

I don't mean to put words in Aelfwine's mouth (correct me if I understood poorly), but my understanding of what he is saying is - the original manuscripts have Tolkien's copyrights on them, but the only text we (the public) have is through Christopher's editing. In order to publish Tolkien's original writings as Public Domain, one has to see the original manuscripts to separate them from Christopher's work, and you have to sign a non-disclosure/non-publishing agreement to do this. Therefore, Tolkien's original manuscripts will fall out of copyright before Christopher's do, but essentially they are protected by these separate (non-copyright) agreements for that window before Christopher's copyright also sunsets.

Urulókë wrote:

I don't mean to put words in Aelfwine's mouth (correct me if I understood poorly), but my understanding of what he is saying is - the original manuscripts have Tolkien's copyrights on them, but the only text we (the public) have is through Christopher's editing. In order to publish Tolkien's original writings as Public Domain, one has to see the original manuscripts to separate them from Christopher's work, and you have to sign a non-disclosure/non-publishing agreement to do this. Therefore, Tolkien's original manuscripts will fall out of copyright before Christopher's do, but essentially they are protected by these separate (non-copyright) agreements for that window before Christopher's copyright also sunsets.

Yes, that's how I read it, but it isn't editing, it is mostly *transcription*, and that transcription has - once copyright has expired - put them into the public domain. Where the text has been edited, it would be Christopher's copyright, of course.

This is likely something that would be a matter for courts to decide in the juristictions where the works fall into the public domain. However, under NZ law there isn't anything about who "typed out the work", it is about who created it.

My personal belief is all of this is moot, and that Tolkien's work will not fall out of copyright in any of our lifetimes.

I think I agree with Aelfwine.

As example, H. P. Lovecraft became largely public domain on 1st January 2008; 70 year rule from 1937 death. Lovecraft's unpublished work (letters etc), however, remain in copyright until 2040. This is due to the work being unpublished, created before 1989, and his death being before 1969. (As an aside: Tolkien doesn't have this protection for his unpublished work.) In the early 1980's S.T. Joshi then edited Lovecraft's texts (examining original manuscripts, typescripts, first publication texts, etc) and published new critical editions of his work. These new texts are technically under copyright to Arkham House/Joshi and will remain in copyright until 70 years after Joshi's death. And he's very much alive. If you want to publish HPL you cannot use these texts without permission. Without permission, you're left with the old "corrupted texts" of the pulps. Tolkien's work that has been re-edited by CT, Hammond/Scull etc, these are not, as I understand, due to fall out of copyright. Sure, you'll be able to publish the books, but not those texts. Now coming to Christopher's publications of his father's material. These are beyond simple annotated editions. These are decidedly Christopher's published works. I do not think the claim that these are "Tolkien's work" will in any way allow their permission-free publiction in 2043. That's my layman's understanding of the matter.

Stu wrote:

but it isn't editing, it is mostly *transcription*

How do you know? In order to know, you would have to see the original, and in order to see the original you would have to sign the agreement not to disclose what you know or to publish it, so good luck fighting that position in an open court (is my take on this).

Stu wrote:

My personal belief is all of this is moot, and that Tolkien's work will not fall out of copyright in any of our lifetimes.

I agree.

Urulókë wrote:

Stu wrote:

My personal belief is all of this is moot, and that Tolkien's work will not fall out of copyright in any of our lifetimes.

I agree.

I disagree. I think we'll see publication of early work without permission within the next two decades. Somewhere. And I aim to still be alive then.